sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)
soph ([personal profile] sophia_sol) wrote2011-04-01 09:07 pm

I have missed talking informally at great length like this!

You probably gathered from my earlier post that my thesis has to do with The Thousand and One Nights.

Hence, I've been reading a lot of that lately. And I have Thoughts!

A lot of these thoughts have to do with the translator. All of the English translations of the Nights have their own quirks and foibles and eccentricities, and the one I chose to work with is Edward Lane, a translator from the mid-19th century. He made the decision to cut any stories that he felt were uninteresting or were objectionable (and apparently had rather idiosyncratic opinions about what stories were uninteresting), and cut any explicit references to sex. And -- I found myself getting unaccountably fond of Lane, while reading through the stories and his extensive footnotes/endnotes.

There was this one story where a girl is in love with her foster-brother, and there was a footnote. So I read the note, and it said, "I have ventured to make a slight alteration here: but it is one which does not in the least affect the consistency of the tale. Marriage with a foster-sister is as expressly forbidden by the Mohammedan law as that with a natural sister." And I went: wait! Wait! What! YOU DIDN'T. Poor Lane couldn't countenance the thought of the story existing with a sister in love with her brother, even though the narrative condemns her affections. SO HE CHANGED IT to make himself feel better. O LANE.

Also apparently I have a tendency find it sort of adorable when old dead dudes have ridiculous beliefs that they anxiously uphold. See, for example, me and St Paul. THIS IS NOT NORMAL. And now I'm feeling the same way about Lane! I...kind of want to write fic about him as well, him and his adorable fascination with the 1001 Nights and his scholarliness and his complete prudishness. OH LANE HONEY it's okay! Sexytiems are OKAY!

But -- and this is the bit where I got REALLY fond of him all of a sudden -- he occasionally would include stories in his endnotes that he didn't think deserved to be in the body of the text, but thought should be included anyways. And there was one story that was about a commonly-recurring character in the stories, Jaafar. And in this story, Jaafar dies. And Lane put it into the end-notes instead of in the main body because, as he says, "In the following anecdote, mention is made of an event of a most melancholy nature, the knowledge of which has caused me to derive less pleasure than I should find, if ignorant of the fact, in many of the best stories in the present collection; and I therefore think that some of my readers may prefer passing it over unread." He doesn't want people to read the story in which Jaafar dies because he fears they'll get all depressed like he did! *huggles Lane* He's so invested in the stories! He cares about the characters and was terribly depressed when Jaafar dies! SO adorable!
Also, apparently I have eccentric tastes in writing? Back when I was doing my research about which translation it would be best for me to use, I concluded that Lane would be the best except for how apparently his writing style is really dry. But I decided I'd suck it up and use it anyways. Fast forward a week or two; I have by this point completely forgotten all the arguments for and against the various translations. I begin reading Lane, I enjoy it utterly, and then when going back to edit my earlier "Note on Translations"? I notice that apparently Lane is supposed to have a really dry style. And I go NUH UH. YOU LIE. Because it is awesome. Okay, yes, I really have a thing for extremely 19th century writing, so sue me. IT IS GREAT.


I have other thoughts too, of course. I mean, I read (or skimmed) nearly 2000 pages of stories in only a few days, and did a LOT of writing and thinking about them. OF COURSE I have other thoughts! Here are a few more.


There is a story with a character named Aslán, and I had to work SO HARD to not constantly read it as the Narnian Aslan. Very different character! DIFFERENT CHARACTER. Also – Thank you, Edward Lane and your educational footnotes – I now know that "Aslan" is a Turkish word meaning "Lion." Real imaginative there, CS Lewis, real imaginative.

Actually now I'm really annoyed about the name of Aslan. It's one of those names that tries to be clever by being all ~relevant~ in a language that's intended to be foreign and unfamiliar to the readers. It is like naming your cat "Neko" because you think it's all ~awesome~ but really all you're doing is naming your cat "Cat". Or like the names in JK Rowling's books, which have always bugged me too, like "Remus Lupin" – a very appropriate name for a werewolf, yes, but he WASN'T a werewolf when he was named as a baby! Gah.

Anways, I'm irrationally bitter about this. Aslan is supposed to just be Aslan's name! HIS NAME SHOULD NOT MEAN "LION." Unless I look at it as parallel with how we talk about God. In Christianity, at least, we treat "God" as being God's name, a lot of the time, when really, it is just a word for the type of being that God is. Except in that case Aslan should just be named Lion – none of this cloaking it in an ~exotic~ language! Gyahhh.


Also, let me expand further on my brief mention the other day of my 1001 Nights OT3 of Kamar/Budoor/Hayat.

Kamar and Budoor are married, but they end up separated by the vicissitudes of fate, as you do. So Budoor dresses up as a man (pretends to be Kamar, actually!) and goes off and is Awesome. Awesome enough, in fact, that a king offers his daughter in marriage to her! This daughter being Hayat. So Budoor and Hayat marry, and Budoor tells Hayat that, um, sorry, actually I'm a woman, and Hayat's all, OH NO WORRIES. ALSO, I WILL HELP YOU FIND KAMAR AGAIN. And then they KISS (ON THE MOUTH) and they "toy" together. I have no idea what was meant in the original Arabic, but I choose to believe that this is an instance of Lane attempting to ellide over the existence of sex. And THEN Kamar finds Budoor again, and thinks Hayat's pretty awesome too, so he's all, Budoor, can I marry her too? And Budoor's all, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. And then they marry and the three of them reside together in enjoyment and happiness and fidelity and cheerfulness. I mean, that doesn't even need a threesome agenda to look OT3!

But SPEAKING OF lesbianism between co-wives, Lane went on to talk in his endnote about how usually co-wives really don't get along, but there are exceptions, and then he tells this epic anecdote about two women who are co-wives and love each other desperately, more than they love their husband, and spend all their time together and hate to be apart, and the one is totally brokenhearted when the other dies. And I'm sitting there going HELLO, but Lane doesn't seem to even NOTICE that there might be anything going on between them besides sisterly devotion.


In conclusion, I want a million 1001 Nights fanfics, about EVERYTHING. Fixing the racefail and disabilityfail and religionfail and feminismfail and all that, having fun with the excellent bits of homoeroticism (finding a young man SO BEAUTIFUL and FALLING IN LOVE WITH HIM and adopting him as a son. Right. I bet your thoughts are so fatherly.), having fun with the total crackyness, doing AUs and crossovers and basically EVERYTHING ELSE IMAGINABLE. There is so much that could be done with these stories!
calvinahobbes: Calvin holding a cardboard tv-shape up in front of himself (Default)

[personal profile] calvinahobbes 2011-04-03 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee, that Lane guy does sound really clueless. I love that there is canon F/F/M in those stories (though it hardly surprises me!).
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
OMFG TRANSLATION GEEKING! MY... ER, MAYBE SECOND- OR THIRD-FAVOURITE KIND OF GEEKING! Ans aw, Lane does sound rather endearing, because he sounds like he cares so much about the story that he wants everyone to love it as much as he does! Which is never not adorable. (I mean... I hope... otherwise everyone I know secretly hates me and I hate them.) Personally I tend to prefer closer translations of things, only because I enjoy attempting to match words in languages I don't know to the English... but, ahaha, "toy together"? Subtle, good sir!

Now I really want to take a look at Burton's translation, but the McGill library has one copy and it's missing. C'mon, guys.
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 02:03 am (UTC)(link)
OH WAIT I FOUND IT ONLINE YAY. Ahaha oh my god I can't find the bit in Lane where Burton says Hayat smears herself in pigeon blood to look like she-- OH WAIT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT KIND OF THING HERE, SORRY. IDK, is that in Lane? Can I just not find it in Google Books?

...don't mind me, just being a translation-obsessed hobbyist in your journal...
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 02:40 am (UTC)(link)
He might have ADDED THINGS? aaaaaaa!!!!! Well here is Burton's version of that particular story... "Hayat al-Nufus arose and took a pigeon-poult, and cut its throat over her smock and besmeared herself with its blood. Then she pulled off her petticoat-trousers and cried aloud, where-upon her people hastened to her and raised the usual lullilooing and outcries of joy and gladness."

*snorts* Lullilooing. LULLILOOING. ALWAYS THE CORRECT REACTION TO A WEDDING NIGHT.

Okay, wow, this seems like a very complicated piece of literature. o.O
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 02:59 am (UTC)(link)
I am rather aghast at the idea of adding things to your translation. On the other hand, Richard Burton just seems like a ballsy person in general. Kind of like your thesis! :D
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
iwusdlgkfhjbeg are you reading his wikipedia page as well?

-Travelled around MEASURING PENISES
-Published the Kame Sutra
-AHAHA "SIR, I AM PROUD TO SAY I HAVE COMMITTED EVERY SIN IN THE DECALOGUE."

Fic. Yes.
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 03:22 am (UTC)(link)
...I was like, "that can't possibly be what it says!" So I just searched for that sentence in the file and started the 215th night. EILRUDGKJHASD;SDBFJASHDG" I want to have gay, gay sex with you" is TAMER.
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
That is exactly who he is. INTERNET WHY IS THERE NO BURTON!FIC?
Although, Wikipedia says he is in some Riverworld and also in Conan Doyle, and... aha what? "Mark Hodder's book The Strange Affair of Spring Heeled Jack features Burton in an alternate steampunk reality in which he does not take the job as consul."
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 03:49 am (UTC)(link)
...somehow I forsee us getting each other for Yuletide. He is not on the yuleletter spreadsheet! How is this possible?

And, that is true. COME ON, INTERENT. I DEMAND LEWDITY.
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 04:00 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, this is true. IDK, it depends how much Burton I read between now and next December. Which right now I would like to be ALL THE BURTON, but practically that seems unlikely.

EVANGELISM IS NEEDED.
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 04:05 am (UTC)(link)
WE SHOULD BRAVELY UNDERTAKE THESE MISSIONS.
tei: Rabbit from the Garden of Earthly Delights (Default)

[personal profile] tei 2011-04-04 01:16 pm (UTC)(link)
OH MY GOODNESS GRACIOUS. (To put it mildly.) "THE CHARMING USES OF HER MOST DELICATE ORGANS." What?

You know what this fandom needs would be of much scholarly merit and useful for many hours of entertainment? A 1001 Nights equivalent of The Chicago Homer, where you can compare the closest translation possible with the original text. Or it would even be fun with different English translations matched as closely as possible. But of course it would be a much larger and more complicated project than with Homer, so that's probably why nobody's done it. If I ever run into a gaggle of Islamic Studies grad students with lots of time on their hands, I'll mention it to them! Ahahaha.

Researching medieval Muslim gay erotica is an EXCELLENT AND IMPORTANT scholarly activity.

[identity profile] lacunaz.livejournal.com 2011-04-02 01:27 am (UTC)(link)
He sounds like the most irresponsible translator ever tbh. Cutting out stories is one thing, especially if it's an abridged version, but changing the actual content...? Can't get behind that, sorry.

LOL seriously? Aslan = lion? That is like how Simba = lion in Swahili or whatever. Imagination abound!
ext_390514: Donna, with text saying "Hug me. I'm awesome." (Orwell: Something is wrong in society)

[identity profile] sophia-sol.livejournal.com 2011-04-02 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
The thing is that ALL of the translators are terribly irresponsible in some way or another. He's among the MOST responsible. *sigh*

I mean, don't even get me started about Burton or Galland or Mardrus or.... A lot of these dudes felt the 1001 Nights didn't have ENOUGH sex, so they added more. Or Burton thought there wasn't enough racism, so he added more of that. Or Galland thought that he could basically change so much in the stories that they're practically his own creation, a lot of them. Or Mardrus thought that he didn't really need to be fluent in Middle Arabic to translate out of it.

GYAH. Dealing with this was a BIG PAIN, let me tell you. It makes me wish I knew Middle Arabic myself so I could bypass the whole problem. Or perhaps speak a different language where there IS a good translation.....
ext_390514: Donna, with text saying "Hug me. I'm awesome." (Default)

[identity profile] sophia-sol.livejournal.com 2011-04-02 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
And my fondness for Lane is, as I said, akin to my fondness for Paul: I do not condone plenty of stuff both of them did, but find reasons to want to smish them anyways despite misguidedness....

[identity profile] seekingferret.livejournal.com 2011-04-03 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)
In my opinion, and I'm admittedly faddishly post-modern when it comes to such things, a great translation is about the engagement between original author and translator, each of whom is an artist in their own right. The obligation of the translator isn't merely to retransmit the original sense of the source text (as if such a thing were possible- the Italian proverb is Traduttore, Traditore), but to present the text in a way that will work in the new language. If that requires rearranging or reinterpreting the text, that is what should be done.

[identity profile] lacunaz.livejournal.com 2011-04-03 10:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I am not implying that a translator should churn out work strictly word-for-word, but it's the ethical responsibility of the translator to not change the content of their work. A lot of what Lane is doing sounds like censorship, but I don't agree with to begin with, but as a translator you can't insert your own morals into something that wasn't yours to begin with. There's a huge difference between saying "oh, my readers won't get this reference, I should change it to something more culturally appropriate" and saying "this offends me personally, I think I should change it".

[identity profile] michelel72.livejournal.com 2011-04-02 02:22 am (UTC)(link)
I know next to nothing about this text (though I am curious whether any responsible translators have come along), but I have to say: Your enthusiasm always brightens my day!
ext_390514: Donna, with text saying "Hug me. I'm awesome." (TS: Blair: Serious Acaface)

[identity profile] sophia-sol.livejournal.com 2011-04-02 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
I hear tell there's a new Penguin edition with a responsible translator? But I couldn't get my hands on it. And there's another dude (...Haddawy, I think?) who's a very responsible translator, but the text that he was working with wasn't one of the extant manuscripts. It was a reconstruction by this other scholar of a proposed "original" that the extant manuscripts were once upon a time based on. And, well, the scholarship behind the idea that there WAS just one original is kind of shaky, because the 1001 Nights developed over a long period of time throughout a number of cultures! It did not just get created and written down one day! So even though the translator is by all accounts AMAZING, his source text is not, which makes his translation less than useful. *SIGH*

Anyways, thank you so much! <3 I am glad to hear that my burbling is of interest to more than just me!